2005-01-17 [wwwwwwwww]: Hello, everyone, and welcome my wiki

2005-01-19 [Forbidden Rampage]: I'm pretty sure that "vanity" is the greatest human flaw. I dunno though.

2005-01-19 [KimoN]: I think its humanities inability to learn from past mistakes. if we could the world would be a perfect place by now.

2005-01-19 [wwwwwwwww]: I believe that you have a relevant argument Kimon. Expand on it and maybe we can get people to see why history really is important =). What argument can you think of for vanity, TLR?

2005-01-19 [foxtrotter]: I think that it's humanities inability to see whats around them. How we are destroying ourselves and everything we touch. Nature is our greatest gift

2005-01-19 [wwwwwwwww]: That is definetely an unfortunate human tendency. Is it right that we should destroy what gave us life?

2005-01-19 [foxtrotter]: and why exactly do you suddenly sound like a reporter Imperator?

2005-01-19 [wwwwwwwww]: Do I? That wasn't my intention :S.

2005-01-19 [foxtrotter]: well i understand that you don't mean to... it just came across that way

2005-01-19 [wwwwwwwww]: Oh well, there are worse things than sounding like a reporter.

2005-01-19 [wwwwwwwww]: Oh and by the way, if anyone has a question of philosophical nature that they themselves need help with, feel free to tell me and I'll post it.

2005-01-20 [Forbidden Rampage]: If people were not self centered and afraid to be truly honest for the sake of looking dumb in the eyes of their peers than potentially problems would be dealt with openess and honesty. I know that I sound like a woman here but seriously, how bad could it be if we were all honest with each other. This may not sound like vanity but trust me it is. I am almost 100% sure of it.

2005-01-20 [wwwwwwwww]: Good points, but there is a deeper cause behind that.. fear. The fear to tell the truth.

2005-01-20 [Amtharnis]: I don't know whether it is as simple as a single flaw. There are different motivations for the things that people do. Sometimes they do it out of greed; sometimes it is a matter of survival. For example, it is all very well for us, with our affluent lifestyles and all the luxuries, to say how terrible it is that Indonesian fisherman are killing thousands of sharks for their finns, but if it was a matter of survival and feeding our children, then we would probably do the same. Plenty of people pontificate about the enviroment, but they are usually as guilty as anyone when you look at what supports the quality of life they enjoy. And it is not good enough to point the finger at other people,

2005-01-20 [Amtharnis]: unless you can provide them with a solution and an alternative. You can't expect them to make all the sacrifices, while the affluent hypocrite lives a secure and comfortable lifestyle that these people are probably paying the real cost for.

2005-01-20 [wwwwwwwww]: That is an interesting point to make, although I think that even if a person isn't doing it in a truly noble way, a step in the right direction is always desirable to no step at all. I'd rather have a bunch of hypocrites out there, crying for reform but doing nothing substantial themselves, than silence. For if and when these hypocrites do triumph, then they will be forced, to uphold appearance if nothing else, to make the change without complaint.

2005-01-20 [Amtharnis]: No, I don't accept that. I think change has to start with yourself, and if you are not part of the solution then you are a part of the problem. Take mobile phones for example. There is an element that makes mobile phones affordable and it is mined in the Congo Jungle. It is in the phone companies interest that the war continues in the congo region so that they can continue to exploit the people and the resource. Where they mine is the home of the gorilla, and the miners (probably being poorly paid by the corporate giants) kill the gorilla's for food. Now tell me, who

2005-01-20 [Amtharnis]: here is going to give up their mobile phones? How can you expect someone else to change, if you don't change your own ways. Half the time, it is the hypocrites who are the root cause of the problem, because they demand all these wonderful products but are not prepared to pay the true cost of them. If they did, then perhaps people in the third world wouldn't have to exploit their resources to stay alive.

2005-01-20 [wwwwwwwww]: That's not the type of hypocrite I am talking about. I'm not defending the fact that people in the Developed World live at ease while in other countries people are on the verge of starvation. I'm defending the people who cry for an end to it, even if they don't do anything REAL, it's better than keeping silent. Like I said, if more people from this developed world cried for their governments to do something more drastic about problems the third world face (even thought they might not understand that they would be recquired to make a personal sacrifice along with everyone else)

2005-01-20 [wwwwwwwww]: , then it is a considerable improvement to nobody saying anything, and the decent people of the developed world going and doing work for international starvation relief organizations, or something to that effect.

2005-01-20 [Forbidden Rampage]: I agree that we each have to change individually before any real good can be achieved. But neither talking about it nor talking about the right way to do it does anyone any real good. I think that it is important not to make yourself the proverbial hypocriate and just whine about it. Do something.

2005-01-20 [Amtharnis]: I am not a big fan of quotes, but seeing as this wiki is about philosophy, I shall quote Gandhi - "Be the change that you expect." There is also another common saying and that is a good leader leads by example. As long as everyone points the finger at someone else, the world is not going to change.

2005-01-20 [wwwwwwwww]: Alright then, although I don't really think you quite get the point of my argument, I must ask exactly what you suggest a person should do in order to facilitate this "change"?

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: Well, there is a lot you can do as a consumer. You it easy enough to do a bit of research on the companies that supply your goods, and you can vote with your dollar. If you don't like pesticides in agriculture, you can buy apples that have spots and blemishes on them instead of the shiny umblemished ones that have probably been saturated in pesticides. If you build a house, you can choose a design that is energy efficient and put in a waste recycling system. When you buy a car, you can choose one that has good fuel economy or uses an alternative power source (hopefully we'll have fuel cells in a few years). If you invest in the stock market, you can check the activities of the companies you

2005-01-21 [wwwwwwwww]: That's all well and good, but it's not enough. I am not saying that it isn't important, what I'm saying is that it must be a mass movement in order for it to be effective, and therefore the masses have to be persuaded to adapt these practices if any real good is going to become of them.

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: are thinking about investing in and choose the ones with ethical goals. I understand what you say about people making noise, but it doesn't do much unless you provide solutions. And often good intentions can go wrong. For example, I am a farmer. Under the pressure of the mainstream green movement, they have tried to use legislation to change farming practises. Over the last 15 years, I have re-established native grasses on my property through management, but under legislation I am no longer allowed to use that land for cropping if I need to; whereas, the blokes who keep plooughing their land, can continue to plough it up forever. If the market falls out of the grazing enterprises, I cannot

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: use any of my land to crop until prices come good again. In effect, I am being told I am a bad manager because I've allowed natural vegetation to regenerate on my farm, and I can't be relied on to manage my land. So I am forced to go broke, while the bad farmer whose farm is in a bad ecological state continues to do what he has always done. If you try to manage things like that with legislation, all you end up with is a huge bureaucracy - voila 1984 and big brother is watching you! What needs to be done instead is to train people and encourage them in good decision making.

2005-01-21 [wwwwwwwww]: One moment, the example you're using is actually you?

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: What is an example of this mass movement you propose? 

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: Yes, it is.

2005-01-21 [wwwwwwwww]: I'm saying that, ridiculous as it sounds, the masses of the developed countries would spend alot more time doing whats good for the environment. For example, minimizing pollution in every way possible to them, as well as protesting against unneccessary hazards towards the environment. Also , there must a great change in culture. People should identify success with contributing towards the good of the human race, rather than amassing as much money as possible. This itself could be done easily enough, if I'm not mistaken, should national and international media change their own goals in such a way.

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: But why isn't that happening? I don't think it is happening, because in spite of all our talk, we are still supporting that which we say we are against. It is like going to the shop and buying a mobile phone, then ringing up the goverment and complaining about what is happening in the Congo. To inspire a mass movement, I think you have to lead by example, otherwise you are not going to have any credibility.

2005-01-21 [wwwwwwwww]: Acknowledged and agreed, I never said that leaders could afford hypocracy. They must be what they preach, but the preaching part is more important than the being.

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: My experience of being expecting to do things by people who don't practise themselves what they preach, has resulted in resentment... and resentment is something that can result in militancy and rebellion. Militant and rebellious people are not very co-operative to your cause.

2005-01-21 [wwwwwwwww]: Er.. I thought we had established that in the hypothetical world movement, the leaders and as many followers as possible would practise what they preached...

2005-01-21 [Amtharnis]: Well, I guess in the hypothetical world our problems are solved if they did do that. The philosophy of communism had a lot of good ideas within it, but it failed because of human nature. It is a matter to as whether or not you want your philosophy tested in the real world.

2005-01-21 [wwwwwwwww]: Well then, communism isn't perfect. Just because it hasn't been invented yet, doesn't mean that the perfect government isn't possible. But I digress... my hypothetical movement is no good if it isn't specifically designed to work in the real world, and therefore let us endeavor to design it thus.

2005-01-22 [Forbidden Rampage]: I did not mean to point fingers I merely ment to suggest that, in the words of Linkin Park, "it starts with one..." I am doing what I think is right for the greater good and I encourage everyone elso to do so as well.

2005-01-22 [wwwwwwwww]: An admirable attitude, and one which I wish more people would adopt.

2005-01-22 [DeleriumJ]: maybe i can catch you guys at the beginning of a discussion sometime ;)

2005-01-22 [wwwwwwwww]: Ah, or better yet, you could start one.

2005-01-22 [DeleriumJ]: well i'd hate to re-hash an old one

2005-01-23 [foxtrotter]: Well being happy is a state of mind. What makes you happy isn't always whats good for you. And being unhappy can drive someone to do some amazing things that will make both their lives and others alot better.

2005-01-23 [wwwwwwwww]: Well, there must be a use for unhappiness otherwise we wouldn't be able to feel it. I think unhappiness must be a motivator for us to better things.. which leads me to another question.. do you think people would be better off without any emotion at all?

2005-01-24 [Forbidden Rampage]: Unhappiness would be better than not feeling at all. Being unhappy allows us to accept and enjoy happiness even more than we would if we went around giggling like idiots all the time. Not feeling would simply not do, the very feelings that we posess are what make us human. It woultherefore be inhuman not to feel. I for one enjoy certain aspects of feeling enough to make up for the bad feelings that must accompany life.

2005-01-24 [wwwwwwwww]: But one might argue that emotion tampers with logic, and without it logic would reign supreme among mankind, creating peace and order.

2005-01-26 [Forbidden Rampage]: If everything was logical nobody would ever take a chance on anything. Like a really great roller coaster or a really great relationship. Or a really great burger. Without the absence of logic not only would peace and order would rule but boredom and the pointless of having free will would therefore be achieved.

2005-01-26 [wwwwwwwww]: It's true, however it would eliminate all suffering. And sometimes even some of the "good" emotions to excess are undesirable. In fact one might argue that emotion itself is undesirable, as pain is the most common result of it.

2005-01-27 [Locke8uu]: I like what The last roman said if every thing was completely logical then Propability Theory wouldn't be a math course.

2005-01-27 [wwwwwwwww]: just think how it would be in the absence of logic. Logic is arguably what seperates human kind from the animal kingdom (if such a seperation might be claimed), along with creativity (which would be useless without logic)

2005-01-27 [Locke8uu]: It depends on what kind of logic your talking about. An animal has a simple logic. If it's hungry the logical thing to do would be to eat. If an animal is afraid the logical thing to do would be to run away. See even animals have a form of logic, but what humans have like you said is creativity. The ability to be creative about the "logical" decisions that humans make.

2005-01-27 [wwwwwwwww]: that's actually not logic, but instinct.. the logic I'm talking about is the ability to reason out solutions to a problem, using things like the proccess of elimination

2005-01-27 [Locke8uu]: More about the absense of logic. If all logic for a moment completely disappeared everything would convert back to a primitive animalistic state since no one could use logic to make any decisions everything would de-evolve back into a completely instinct driven state of being.

2005-01-27 [wwwwwwwww]: exactly

2005-01-27 [Locke8uu]: The sad thing about it is that humans would never realize it was happening since no one could use logic to reason out what was going on.

2005-01-27 [Locke8uu]: Could anyone imagine not being able to comprehend the world around them outside of if there is food, water, or predators. I know that seems like the world would be over to anyone reading this forum.

2005-01-27 [Amtharnis]: To imagine that, you need something other than logic - you need creativity. Creativity includes the ability to think illogically and abstractly. Civilisation owes as much to creativity as it does to logic. Creativity provides the ideas, and logic allows you to test those ideas. So people who say that you shouldn't focus too much on logic, may have a point, and using the logic can get you into trouble.

2005-01-27 [wwwwwwwww]: I wouldn't go so far as to say that, although creativity is of a different breed than logic, I wouldn't say it's illogical.

2005-01-27 [Amtharnis]: I didn't say it was illogical. I said it includes the ability to think illogically. However, it might be the case that thinking illogically might not be possible even with creativity - that there might even be something logical in what seems illogical thought. I don't know. What do you think?

2005-01-27 [wwwwwwwww]: I think that there must be a logic to creativity, otherwise it wouldn't work. It's like the "thinking outside the box" problem.. the only solution to the problem recquires creativity, but it's also the only logical way to do it. Perhaps creativity is just a way of applying logic to illogical situations.. if that makes any sense.

2005-01-28 [Amtharnis]: Does it have to work? You might come up with a great idea that doesn't work when you apply logic to it, but does that mean you weren't being creative, or is it only creative when it works? I suppose if it doesn't work it could be said to be destruction, not creativity. That could be an interesting definition. If creativity is applying logic to illogical situations, what do you create the illogical situation with?

2005-01-28 [wwwwwwwww]: The world is an illogical place, and illogical situations often arise. However, with regards to " you might come up with a great idea that doesn't work when you apply logic to it".. well then it wouldn't really be a great idea. However, there are some ideas that don't work because logic has not been applied in the right way, if you see what I mean.

2005-01-28 [Amtharnis]: If I had an idea that sounded ludicrous and made you laugh, wouldn't it great that it made you laugh. Creativity might have other uses that don't require as strict a logic. Writing a fantasy novel for example, you can go on imaginative experiment by allowing things that would be logically impossible to happen in the real world to happen in the world of your imagination. Language is not always logical in its structure and rules, but it is still a very useful tool and the idea for us apes to use sounds to communicate with has been a pretty successful idea.

2005-01-29 [Forbidden Rampage]: Has anyone read "The Da Vinci Code"? It has some very out of the ordinary ideas in it. The wierd thing is that they actually make sense! I encourage everyone to read it.

2005-01-29 [wwwwwwwww]: Yeah, it is a good book, as well as Angels & Demons (another one from Dan Brown), but not everything is factual in his works, which are after all fiction.

2005-01-29 [Amtharnis]: Can a work of fiction not have a theme that is philisophical even though the story mightn't be factual? I haven't read the Da Vinci Code - thankyou for the tip.

2005-01-29 [wwwwwwwww]: While you're at it, read the other book I mentioned. They are both rich in some very interesting historical facts, as well as an amazing plot. But little of the story directly deals with philosophy.

2005-01-30 [Locke8uu]: The actual "Da Vinci Code" is a number called the Golden Mean. It is a ratio of perfection used in all things pleasing to the eye. I can't remember the exact number, but I think is is something lik 1.85 blah blah. That number is used in architecture and can be found in attractive faces and body forms.

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: That's an interesting bit of information. So the intellectual way to tell someone they're hot is, "You're so 1.85..." Funny thing is I never even thought of the titles association with Leonardo until you mentioned that.

2005-01-30 [Locke8uu]: I am sorry the number I mentioned is incorrect. It is actually 1.618034. It is a ratio used in dimensions not an adjective.

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: Back to the old drawing board on that one then I guess.

2005-01-30 [wwwwwwwww]: it's called "phi", like pi with an h.

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: It must be an adjective then, because "everybody says I'm pretty phi for a white guy."

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: To be more serious, now that everybody knows what phi (Golden Mean) is, the question that could be asked is why is it beautiful? This website http://www.vashti.net/mceinc/golden.htm gives an explaination of how it is mathematically derived and why it occurs in nature. So is it beautiful because evolution has conditioned to look for proportions of phi in a potential partner as a sign of health and therefore want to breed with it? Or does it have a higher meaning; ie, a number chosen by god or something, or that the meaning of life may lie in phi? Not sure how that would work, but anyway. There's a propositon for a discussion if you wanted one.

2005-01-31 [wwwwwwwww]: I think that it might have something to do with evolution.. perhaps the number 'phi' constitutes a more durable creature, and for that reason phi-proportions recur in nature as often as it does. I believe that the "beautiful" part of it might well be what you suggested... if it has a higher meaning, how? Why would "god" choose that specific number?

2005-01-31 [Forbidden Rampage]: Well on the other hand hy would nature, purely by chance, happen to come an exact number for everything? It is too exact to be purely by chance. I believe that it is also called the "divine proportion"

2005-01-31 [wwwwwwwww]: maybe because this number proved most able to withstand external pressures?

2005-01-31 [wwwwwwwww]: I'm not sure, it's just speculation, but it's probably something along those lines

2005-01-31 [Amtharnis]: I can understand why something like a nautilus shell or sunflower would have growth rate that follows the 'Fibonacci series' - due to cell division having mathematical increments. I'm not sure where the ratios lie on a human, but a nose is not another layer of the lip, so why would they have the proportions of phi. It is quite extraordinary to think the ratio of phi would be the best adaption for all enviromental conditions. Maybe it occurs in those proportions that don't effect adaption but somehow indicate health. Apparently we like symmetrical faces because that is an indication of health and freedom of disease. However, is a building designed with the ratio of phi any less likely to fall

2005-01-31 [Amtharnis]: down than one that is built on some other ratio? Maybe it is something to do with the way our brain works, but then if animals also have ratios of phi in their proportions, it would have to be in a very primitive part of the brain in that case. Wait a minute, I remember learning in music that musical scales are designed in a similar way. I just checked and the Golden Mean occurs in music also. Now what evolutionary purpose would that serve?

2005-01-31 [Amtharnis]: It would be interesting to test the theory to see whether we really do find the ratio of phi more attractive, or if that the idea that it does is derived from some philosopher's contemplation of a nautilus shell. He might have come up with the idea, that if this ratio occurs in nature in such things as nautilus shells, then it must have some meaning, and so decided to incorporate it into art and music as the ideal ratio.

2005-02-06 [Forbidden Rampage]: I as actually thinking the other day while I was running about the correlation between music and the Divine Proportion. Maybe the way that the notes are arranged could possibly have something to do with whether or not the sound is appealing to our minds or not. Maybe the great composers of the past were on to something that we didn't know about.

2005-02-06 [Amtharnis]: Do you know whether the divine proportion occurs outside of western music? I can't remember precisely, but I think you can create the same note but on a different octave using the fibonacci series with strings. I'm not sure, but sound frequencies may also follow the golden mean, in which case the composers just figured out something that occurs naturally. In that case you would expect the golden mean to occur in other musical styles other than western music. I don't know whether all that is correct or not, though. It would be interesting to find out. Anyone around here study music?

2005-02-07 [wwwwwwwww]: A divine proportion in music? Hmm.. it's possible I suppose. There are alot of ties between music and math, but perhaps it's really math that's tied to music. I like to think of music as the sound given off when the universe was created, and all music is the attempt to recreate that sound. Of course, I can't present much evidence.

2005-02-08 [Forbidden Rampage]: I wish that I did study music. I find that I lack the patience to do more than control a basic grasp of up means high note and down means low note. It isnt really my cup of milk however. In case you were wondering I really dont like tea.

2005-02-08 [wwwwwwwww]: pick up a guitar and start playing.. you don't need any patience whatsoever and the sounds you produce are as good a study of music as anything else :P

2005-02-10 [Forbidden Rampage]: good Idea. I may just take that up.

2005-02-10 [DeleriumJ]: take lessons. i took two years of lessons and it was a really great foundation. a chord book is good to have too.

2005-02-15 [wwwwwwwww]: I regret to inform everyone that for the remainder of the month of February I shall be unable to maintain this wiki page, due to a serious cut down in my "free" time. I will re-enter discussion and activity around elftown in about a month. Apologies for any inconveniences. -Imp

2005-02-20 [eye of the storm]: I studied the psychology of music. what "sounds good" is actually quite mathmatical, and while one can learn music on one's own, it is a lot easier taught. I did a project on different music types and their effect on humans, mind and body. I don't have all the answers, but I do know about music.

2005-02-20 [Amtharnis]: Oh, thankyou, thespian royalty, I knew maths was involved in music somehow. It is an interesting subject, the effect of music on the human brain. It is little wonder that music is considered such a spiritual thing.

2005-02-21 [Forbidden Rampage]: That is very true It can be a very spiritual thing when you listen to music that speaks to you in just the right way. I love the way that my adrenaline flows when I listen to certain songs.

2005-02-23 [Locke8uu]: Today they use certain sounds to induce certain activities of the brain, such as thinking and meditation. What they do is study peoples brain waves while in these states and then match those brain waves with sound waves. When the person hears these particular sounds the brain is persuaded into the state of mind for which the music was designed.

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: Hello guys. I consider myself both a musician and a philosopher (whether I am nether, one or the other, or both is a subjective opinion anyway) so maybe I could be of some help here. I'll try to give you what information on math, music and "sounding good" that I know of.

2005-03-01 [Amtharnis]: That would be great, Simuir!

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: I hope it's OK for me to burst in like this. If not, please flame me and I'll go hide under a rock. Now that that's out of the way, let me take it from the beginning and provide you with a few definitions: In music, you generally combine "notes" sequentially (and quite often simultaneously, this is what makes a "chord") to create songs. Each "note" has a specific base frequency; all instances of that note share this approximate base frequency (overtones are not relevant to this definition, but they *are* relevant to music production). A "scale" is the full set of notes that are utilized to produce some part of a song. "Pitch" corresponds vaguely to frequency (higher pitch, higher frequency).

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: Most scales are arranged from lowest pitch to highest pitch. Now, let's give each note an index; for, say, five neighbouring notes you could give them the indices 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. A scale normally extends infinitely both ways, so you're bound to get negative indices at the lower pitches. Let's arrange this in a graphical curve, with the index as the horizontal axis and the frequency as the vertical axis. For the "traditional" full scale which is used in pretty much every music production system and most modern instruments the curve is an approximate exponential one, where for each 12 notes the frequency has doubled. Thus, to calculate the frequency of any note, you can use a formula:

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: Lets put origo at the middle A (that's a note), so it has the index 0. It also has the precise frequency 440.0Hz (by definition). The formula is then 2^(index/12)*440.0Hz

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: The standard notation for the notes in a full octave (12 notes) is: A, A# (or Bb), B, C, C# (or Db), D, D# (or Eb), E, F, F# (or Gb), G, G# (or Ab). The letters stem from a simpler scale that has eight notes per octave (thus "octave") but was later completed with the addition of sharp notes (#) and flat notes (b) which are the notes in between. I hope I'm not being too longwinded by the way... there's more to come.

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: Two notes sound "well" together when their waveforms overlap nicely. When the waveforms create a chaotic pattern, it tends to sound horrible. For example, if I play the notes C (index 3) and G (index 10) together, the frequencies I play will be 2^(3/12)*440.0Hz = approx. 523.25Hz and 2^(10/12)*440.0Hz = approx. 784Hz. Imagine two sine curves at these frequencies, where time is on the horizontal axis. Because 784Hz / 523.25Hz is approx. 1.5, they will almost be in synch. Subsequentially, they blend together in a way that "fills" the sound rather than "breaks" it. Harmonics seem to depend a lot on this principle. If we move the G somewhat to 523.25Hz*1.5 = 784.875Hz, they blend even better.

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: If I were to play, say, A and A# together, I would get the frequencies 440.0Hz (obviously) and 2^(1/12)*440.Hz. These waveforms do not stay in synch for very long, and this brings a disturbing sound. The shower scene in the movie "psycho" is a fine example of this type of combination. Another "terrible" sounding interval is at exactly half an octave, that's 6 "halfnotes" apart (they are called halfnotes because of the old letter-based scale). I recall vaguely from one of my music or history lessons that one of these was at some time named the "devil's interval", and that you could get severely punished for playing it.

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: Interestingly enough, music tends to get boring unless you "break" the harmony a bit by adding inharmonious intervals. Both the 1-halfnote and 6-halfnote intervals are used quite a lot in modern music.. A good example is the chord D7, where the notes D, F#, A and C are involved. Consider the relations between all notes here; the relation between C and F# is a 6-halfnote interval. Now, the real question is, does phi have anything to do with this? The thought never occurred to me before I saw this discussion.

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: There is a lot more to the subject, but I think this is enough for the time being, or I'll be flooding the chat.. :D

2005-03-01 [Amtharnis]: We are getting closer to the answer. Are you familiar with the fibonacci series, Simuir? I am just thinking with your knowledge of musical theory, if you look at the fibonacci series, you might be able to relate it to the sound frequencies that make up the notes in the scales. I read somewhere that Chord construction follows the fibonacci rule, so I suspect it would repeatedly show up in music in other ways.

2005-03-01 [Simuir]: I already knew about the Golden Section, but I was taught at a photo class that it was exactly 2/3. :D Anyway, I read the page at the link you posted, so now I know what the true meaning of phi is, and now I know a little about the fibonacci series. I still don't see how harmonious frequencies and phi might relate, but there is another dimension to music, and that is rhythm, which is based on time. Rhythm tends to sound more lively when it "swings", and I think phi may very easily be applied there. The question is whether or not it sounds better... I'll try it out.

2005-03-02 [Simuir]: Maybe I should've put all that stuff in a wiki rather than in this chat? .. oh well, done is done, isn't it? :D

2005-03-17 [(eeob)]: Say, have you ever read, "The Ancient Secret Of The Flower Of Life"? And hello.

2005-03-17 [wwwwwwwww]: No, I haven't. Why?

2005-03-17 [wwwwwwwww]: " still don't see how harmonious frequencies and phi might relate, but there is another dimension to music, and that is rhythm, which is based on time. Rhythm tends to sound more lively when it "swings", and I think phi may very easily be applied there. The question is whether or not it sounds better... I'll try it out. " That's possible, but I think rhythm is just a component of music, like notes are. Alone, it is nothing special.. there is a complex relationship between rhythm and notes that creates music (beautiful or otherwise)

2005-03-17 [wwwwwwwww]: Perhaps it is this relationship which is in truth "music"

2005-03-18 [Simuir]: Not all rhythm requires actual *notes* and it can still be quite interesting as a piece of music, samba rhythms are a good example of this :D ..but in most cases I'd agree with you.

2005-03-18 [Simuir]: I still haven't tried applying phi as a swing ratio, because none of my music software supports it. I've been intending for a while to write a proglet that generates a .wav file with an arbitrary swing ratio, just to try it out. Haven't gotten around to it yet though.

2005-05-04 [Lost in Illusions]: ~wanders into the wiki and looks around, waving shyly~ Hello... I was invited here, I think, based on the merit provided by my nonconformity rant and the essay contained on my house. Anyway, Id just like to say that I love philosophy and will talk about pretty much any issue or ideal and welcome all comments my way.

2005-05-11 [x0x0x0x0x0]: just head on to the questions and answers page and either take up an argument or start your own

2005-05-11 [Lost in Illusions]: hmmmm... that I can do... It may take a few days... Im still recovering from my Philosophy class.

2006-11-08 [Dil*]: wow...that convo up there sounds pretty intense.